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Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
Dandragoon Offline
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Post: #1
Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
I copied some of the post that i made in Quanto Konamis thread since a good couple of people asked me to do so.Anyways, what we are discussing here is one facett of 2 core problems this game has at the moment.

1.) There is no moneysink implemented in the game.

2.) There is no monstersink implemented in the game.


Sounds easy, but those really are the core problems that ruin economy and make most of the things happening (new players can afford high level Zeniths and Legends right on day 1) possible.

The Problem:

The more players actually play the game, the more money will be in game.
Now what happens with that money? For the most part - nothing. Yes, you can buy items, degrades, nutritions, or exp maxes.
But in the end - gold won't do anything for a player, it is not even desirable to have a lot of gold. The simple reason for that is, there is nothing a player can effectively use it for besides buying monsters (i will get to that point later). Looking at most popular mmos or morpgs, what determines a successful game?
It's a working economy. And we do not have that right now, in no way.
More gold is accumulated daily, and inflation is unavoidable.

At this point, i need to take on the second problem, the number of Monsters.
Since there is no restriction on catching monsters of any type, there are more and more Legenda and Zeniths in the game, which drops the price for them immensely.
It takes no more then 2,5k for a box to catch them, and any player with a decent monster can do it.
There is no way or danger of losing your monsters, so we will sit on more and more of them.

Conclusion:

While we got more gold and more monsters, cherrypicking is the name of the game. If a monster does not have the desirable stats or natures players want in general, they tend to not care for prices or benefit, since catching them already is beneficial enough in most cases. (gold and exp wise)
So there is no need to charge more then, say 3k for a Legend, and you would still have made profit off that.
Good natured monsters will be extremely expensive, bad natured ones extremely cheap due to the masses of gold and the lack of a need to charge high prices for them - since it took no effort to catch them moneywise in the first place.

And that's where many problems that are beeing discussed lately tick in.
Any new player can afford a cheap, relatively strong monster (even though not perfectly natured/ uved) in about no time and make playing the game a breeze.
Those players will lose their interest / fun very quick, and many stop playing alltogether right after they started.
Sure, we could try to limit trades and sales, but that does not help to make the economy work in the end, and does not solve the real problems the game has.

We need to have a way ( or different ways) to take gold and monsters out of the game and get a benefit for doing so.
Also, more effort to catch strong monster would help a lot, as would do cutting the instant gold voting bonus.

Possible Solutions:

- Make boxes to catch strong monster more expensive.

- Put a limit to the ammount of monster that can be sold on the bazaar at the same time (maybe 10?)

- Introduce a fee for selling Monsters, or for putting them up for trade (like the auctionhouses in many popular mmos work)

- Cut voting instant gold down to like 30-50k (just a random number) or take away completely and just get gold and exp % bonus.

And, most importantly, add a feature to "sacrifice" monsters, as well as spend gold on something useful.

- One possible option would be raising a monsters uv by, say, 1 single point if you sacrifice a Monster of the same name, but only to a certain limit (say 44 maybe, 1 below donation maxes) and make it cost gold on top (optional).

- Add features that costs gold - like nicknaming your monsters. People would do it anyways. I would. And the name change cost could be scaling with the level or class of the monster. Nicknaming your monster is a requested feature for a long time now, might as well combine it with something that will help the game economy.

- Another idea would be to allow a swap of 2 uv stats for a huge ammount of gold - for example you have a trembling natured monster with 45 defense but only 12 speed - and you can pay a large ammount of gold to swap those 2 uvs.




Those are just a few idead to get a working economy, and would solve most of the problems we experience right now.
No more 30k Legends if you can boost an existing one with it. No more 20k Engirons if you can make yours better and name it "Destroyer of worlds" or whatever people like to call their monsters.
And, on top of all the benefits - compared to the ammount of gold and time you would then be able to spend to perfect a monster, donating is even more attractive Smile
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03-29-2012 12:20 AM
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Ariel_Ultra Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
I support that suggestions.
03-29-2012 12:41 AM
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PcKaveman Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
<----- this guy!
Supports your idea
Be a (P)layer against (I)flating the (G)ames economy! (P.I.G.)
"For what is a man, what has he got. If not himself, then he has naught" - Frank Sinatra
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03-29-2012 12:54 AM
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Verus Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
I agree that there needs to be something to this effect, though I disagree with a few of the suggestions. Ultimate boxes definitely need to cost more, and I definitely support features that cost money (though I don't think name-changing would solve much in the long run. But if there's a few, and some are pretty useful/fun, then definitely).

Maybe something like the casino in the pokemon games, where you can play minigames using casino coins (which can bought at an extortionate rate compared to gold, and maybe get a starting amount), and the prizes can be something like the baby form monsters, or monsters not found in the wild. Though minigames would take a lot of effort Sad

As for the UV boosting, I think 44 is a bit too high. That would essentially be good uv's, and if you had the money to improve it across the board, then you've got a pretty beasty monster. Maybe lower, like 30-35. Or just not having UV boosting. Obviously it would cost a lot, but I imagine most people who play don't really go for gold yet, so pricing it without a clear idea of what people could actually earn if given some effort makes it seem like a bad idea. Though I'm not against UV switching, that seems more fair.

The other ideas I'm not really for or against. Probably because I wouldn't use them (or at least not much).

Definitely for a goldsink/monstersink though Big Grin
03-29-2012 01:25 AM
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Fuelhead Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
I support this Big Grin
03-29-2012 01:51 AM
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Anomandaris Giovanni Rake Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
(03-29-2012 12:20 AM)Dandragoon Wrote:  I copied some of the post that i made in Quanto Konamis thread since a good couple of people asked me to do so.Anyways, what we are discussing here is one facett of 2 core problems this game has at the moment.

1.) There is no moneysink implemented in the game.

2.) There is no monstersink implemented in the game.


Sounds easy, but those really are the core problems that ruin economy and make most of the things happening (new players can afford high level Zeniths and Legends right on day 1) possible.

The Problem:

The more players actually play the game, the more money will be in game.
Now what happens with that money? For the most part - nothing. Yes, you can buy items, degrades, nutritions, or exp maxes.
But in the end - gold won't do anything for a player, it is not even desirable to have a lot of gold. The simple reason for that is, there is nothing a player can effectively use it for besides buying monsters (i will get to that point later). Looking at most popular mmos or morpgs, what determines a successful game?
It's a working economy. And we do not have that right now, in no way.
More gold is accumulated daily, and inflation is unavoidable.

At this point, i need to take on the second problem, the number of Monsters.
Since there is no restriction on catching monsters of any type, there are more and more Legenda and Zeniths in the game, which drops the price for them immensely.
It takes no more then 2,5k for a box to catch them, and any player with a decent monster can do it.
There is no way or danger of losing your monsters, so we will sit on more and more of them.

Conclusion:

While we got more gold and more monsters, cherrypicking is the name of the game. If a monster does not have the desirable stats or natures players want in general, they tend to not care for prices or benefit, since catching them already is beneficial enough in most cases. (gold and exp wise)
So there is no need to charge more then, say 3k for a Legend, and you would still have made profit off that.
Good natured monsters will be extremely expensive, bad natured ones extremely cheap due to the masses of gold and the lack of a need to charge high prices for them - since it took no effort to catch them moneywise in the first place.

And that's where many problems that are beeing discussed lately tick in.
Any new player can afford a cheap, relatively strong monster (even though not perfectly natured/ uved) in about no time and make playing the game a breeze.
Those players will lose their interest / fun very quick, and many stop playing alltogether right after they started.
Sure, we could try to limit trades and sales, but that does not help to make the economy work in the end, and does not solve the real problems the game has.

We need to have a way ( or different ways) to take gold and monsters out of the game and get a benefit for doing so.
Also, more effort to catch strong monster would help a lot, as would do cutting the instant gold voting bonus.

Possible Solutions:

- Make boxes to catch strong monster more expensive.

- Put a limit to the ammount of monster that can be sold on the bazaar at the same time (maybe 10?)

- Introduce a fee for selling Monsters, or for putting them up for trade (like the auctionhouses in many popular mmos work)

- Cut voting instant gold down to like 30-50k (just a random number) or take away completely and just get gold and exp % bonus.

And, most importantly, add a feature to "sacrifice" monsters, as well as spend gold on something useful.

- One possible option would be raising a monsters uv by, say, 1 single point if you sacrifice a Monster of the same name, but only to a certain limit (say 44 maybe, 1 below donation maxes) and make it cost gold on top (optional).

- Add features that costs gold - like nicknaming your monsters. People would do it anyways. I would. And the name change cost could be scaling with the level or class of the monster. Nicknaming your monster is a requested feature for a long time now, might as well combine it with something that will help the game economy.

- Another idea would be to allow a swap of 2 uv stats for a huge ammount of gold - for example you have a trembling natured monster with 45 defense but only 12 speed - and you can pay a large ammount of gold to swap those 2 uvs.




Those are just a few idead to get a working economy, and would solve most of the problems we experience right now.
No more 30k Legends if you can boost an existing one with it. No more 20k Engirons if you can make yours better and name it "Destroyer of worlds" or whatever people like to call their monsters.
And, on top of all the benefits - compared to the ammount of gold and time you would then be able to spend to perfect a monster, donating is even more attractive Smile
Quote: Make boxes to catch strong monster more expensive.
ultimate boxes will be doubling or even tripling in price once the ancients have been released , and you have to weaken them to use them

Quote: Put a limit to the ammount of monster that can be sold on the bazaar at the same time (maybe 10?)
why would limiting help? All people would do is put up 10 engi's for less gold, if your going to limit something , it's limit has to be feasible, why not make it 5 of a certain class at any one point, so people can't have 30 engi's on the bazaar?

Quote: Introduce a fee for selling Monsters, or for putting them up for trade (like the auctionhouses in many popular mmos work)
why should we have to pay to trade our own monsters? Instead why not make a pay to use the trade option part, every time you make any sort of trade, you pay some percent of your current gold for the trade to go through?

Quote: Cut voting instant gold down to like 30-50k (just a random number) or take away completely and just get gold and exp % bonus.
If your going to cut gold, why not just make it only 25 k, enough to get any ai / monster player / radar. And eliminating it completely makes more sense, almost any player can make more than the 100,000 bonus in 6 hours, why not just make it exp + gold boost?

Quote: One possible option would be raising a monsters uv by, say, 1 single point if you sacrifice a Monster of the same name, but only to a certain limit (say 44 maybe, 1 below donation maxes) and make it cost gold on top (optional).
This would completely defeat the purpose of donating for full uv's. and it would increase the amount of spam legends exponentially, all people would do is find one good nature, capture everything else and sacrifice them to get 44 uv's in everything , essentially making it the same as a donation mon, plus what if i already have a monster with more than 44, would that mean i could get it to all 50's? either way you'd only be increasing the number of expensive legends on the bazaar.

Quote: Add features that costs gold - like nicknaming your monsters. People would do it anyways. I would. And the name change cost could be scaling with the level or class of the monster. Nicknaming your monster is a requested feature for a long time now, might as well combine it with something that will help the game economy.
I would only do this based on class scaling , if it was exponentially more for a level 100 legend, then any other level of legend, i personally wouldn't nickname my monsters, however if it were say base 300,000 for any given legend , this would be more accepted game wide i would think.

Quote: Another idea would be to allow a swap of 2 uv stats for a huge ammount of gold - for example you have a trembling natured monster with 45 defense but only 12 speed - and you can pay a large ammount of gold to swap those 2 uvs.
1)
How would this item work, you'd have to make every user able to access the server and swap the stats, that would only be destructive, unless you made an item for every possible swap i.e: one for attack swapped with defence, one for attack swaped with sp attack, etc.

2) this would completely defeat the purpose of donating to swap a monsters nature and essentially wreck the funding Cefurkan uses to make the game / update the monsters / maps, etc.

3) No amount of gold would make this feasible / implementable in Cefurkans eyes i would think , why allow players to spend in game gold on something that barely costs any real money? Plus how much is a "huge amount" players like utku34 have 600 million (600,000,000) gold to throw around so even at 100 mill per swap he could swap 6 monsters. Not to mention the fact that once swapped, that monster could just be put on the bazaar for more gold and just increase the spam of better natured legends on the bazaar.

Plus half the fun of the game is hunting for the right nature and uv's on a monster, with this sort of thing implemented , players would just be farming gold 24 / 7 to pay to swap uv's, not exactly my idea of a good time, in fact if this sort of item was implemented i imagine the community of donater's and players would decrease, because then we payed for something regular players can now access any time, i know personally this system would cause me to quit, no point in playing a game where half of the challenge has been removed.


I'm not bashing the ideas, i actually think some of them are unique and could be a solid addition to the game, but to implement them in the growing stages of this game would seem like a bad idea to me. Some of the ideas would need to be tooled correctly in order to be feasible in terms of fairness for the entire community and some are just not something i personally agree with, nor would some other players i imagine

so although i agree with some of the ideas, i do not agree on the whole, so i can't say i would support all of them together, certain individual ones, with tweaks to the fairness / challenge / amounts yes, but as one entire package i don't support it
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03-29-2012 03:27 AM
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Dandragoon Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
Rake:

None of the possible solution is at a point where i'd say "and this is 100% the way to go", we are talking about concepts.
And while i do understand your fears, i think a few of the points would seem more logical if further explained or tweaked out.

Voting gold: I agree completely removing it would be best. The 30k gold i mentioned have been with just what you said in mind - maybe buying a monster player / net / ai.

Sacrificing for uv raise: if you'd remove the gold part, and put a lower limit - make that 35 for example - you would still have your monstersink there.
Of course you'd see more good legends on the bazaar - but at the same time a LOT less of the crappy ones. And if someone would put a crappy one on there for cheap, it's bought and sacrificed, taking it efficiently out of the game. Hower things are limited or turn out, i just want to see an option to get rid of bad catches or spam - catches in a way that would still benefit the player.

Nicknaming : I see your point there. so maybe just a flaz gold fee based on class then?

Uv - swapping: The idea is in no way tweaked out the way i posted it, it is just the idea of a general concept that needs further limitation and clarification.
Also, there's probably no use in implementing anything like this before we had our big update.
Still, the general idea is like : limited to 1 stat-swap per monster, so only 2 stats can be swapt. Price should be high, but not like 100 millions - nobody would do that, and we could just drop the idea then. I'm thinking more of something like 3-5 millions. And as long as there is no nature-change option for gold, you#d still have to be lucky in nature and have any good uv at all.

what i'm trying to say: the benefits from spending gold / monsters should be limited to a point where donating still gives far more, and will eventually make donating even more attrative for average players that can't afford to spend that much gold / time to hunt. I do not think Cefurkan will see a decreasing number of donations if the game you play feels like it has some kind of working economy compared to it's current state, where a lot of people do not donate because they do not know where the whole game is going.
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03-29-2012 03:54 AM
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Anomandaris Giovanni Rake Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
(03-29-2012 03:54 AM)Dandragoon Wrote:  Rake:

None of the possible solution is at a point where i'd say "and this is 100% the way to go", we are talking about concepts.
And while i do understand your fears, i think a few of the points would seem more logical if further explained or tweaked out.

Voting gold: I agree completely removing it would be best. The 30k gold i mentioned have been with just what you said in mind - maybe buying a monster player / net / ai.

Sacrificing for uv raise: if you'd remove the gold part, and put a lower limit - make that 35 for example - you would still have your monstersink there.
Of course you'd see more good legends on the bazaar - but at the same time a LOT less of the crappy ones. And if someone would put a crappy one on there for cheap, it's bought and sacrificed, taking it efficiently out of the game. Hower things are limited or turn out, i just want to see an option to get rid of bad catches or spam - catches in a way that would still benefit the player.

Nicknaming : I see your point there. so maybe just a flaz gold fee based on class then?

Uv - swapping: The idea is in no way tweaked out the way i posted it, it is just the idea of a general concept that needs further limitation and clarification.
Also, there's probably no use in implementing anything like this before we had our big update.
Still, the general idea is like : limited to 1 stat-swap per monster, so only 2 stats can be swapt. Price should be high, but not like 100 millions - nobody would do that, and we could just drop the idea then. I'm thinking more of something like 3-5 millions. And as long as there is no nature-change option for gold, you#d still have to be lucky in nature and have any good uv at all.

what i'm trying to say: the benefits from spending gold / monsters should be limited to a point where donating still gives far more, and will eventually make donating even more attrative for average players that can't afford to spend that much gold / time to hunt. I do not think Cefurkan will see a decreasing number of donations if the game you play feels like it has some kind of working economy compared to it's current state, where a lot of people do not donate because they do not know where the whole game is going.
yeah i see your point , i just wanted to state some of the things i think that the ideas need to iron out, i realize they are just ideas and i know none of them say "this is the way we must go". I just felt like i needed to make it known how i felt about the direction i'd think people would be comfortable with, i can't speak for the community , but i can say that personally there are just things that i had initial problems / fears about
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03-29-2012 04:23 AM
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Fluppe23 Offline
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Post: #9
Bug RE: Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
I most definitely support all made suggestions!!!!
some other ideas I had were:
-pay for treatment in the center's(the bill should fit the monster/player level).
-stacking UV's should cost more after every change and the max of
changes should be leveled by a certain percentage of the total uv(that
the higher UV still is the most wearthy because it's rare and nobody
should sell something that rare ;-) ).
-the ultimate box should cost more than catching a legendary pays off
(otherwise it just costs a little time and you get tons of money, "nice"
monster and your player level is continuously rising)
The main problem I see with the changes in the economy is, that we didn't stop short.
We already did go too far.
The "old money and monster" can't just be deleted.
How can we make sure that the needed changes won't ruin the game for the new or old players?

One conclusion would be to make one change by a time, try to continuously adjust the system.
-> I fear that the comunity could go postal....
->they would fear the not certain future)

The opposite would be a clear cut. Just do it and tell everybody to live with it.
-> The comunity would definitely go postal.
->but calm down as fast as the worries came up and would be interested in the new system.


Every change will scare some players off but doing nothing will most definitively end this games potential.

Please don't let this game get stuck in boredom. Sad

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the best way to do it is as follows:
Make a clear cut, hide some treat for the old players and nobody will stop playing because of the changes. Tongue

Ps.:There won't be a perfect way.
Pps.: If you demand a fee on trades you would regulate the total number of bought monster and if somebody would spend 600.000.000 gold on some monster, he would have used the money and by that he would have taken it out of the game; I can't understand the sad as a real argument... sry.
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2012 04:41 AM by Fluppe23.)
03-29-2012 04:31 AM
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Knost Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
Be a P.I.G.!
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
03-29-2012 05:24 AM
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quarts21 Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
I am a P.I.G.~!

my thoughts on sacrificing monsters for increased uvs:

1) If we set it so along with sacrificing a monster it also costed 1 million gold the cost suddenly becomes more and now perhaps donators and non donators can be happy =)

2) To increase one uv u must lose in another uv, for instance u wanna increase sp atack of a halls monster, then u pay the nessary fees (monster of the same type and gold) and get sp atk uv = +1 but u have to choose another stat to set to -2. Aka sp atk = +1 you choose to subtract def so def= -2. I hope this part was clear it was bit hard getting my point across sorry =(

3) There will obviously have to be a limit to how high u can get one stat so as donators wont be angry. I feel 40 is a reasonable number beacause even though your bringing your best stat to a high value other stats will suffer and your monster will never be as good as a donators monster

Let me know what you think again i remind you im just brain storming =)

and good job dan! Be a P.I.G.!!!!!
03-29-2012 06:31 AM
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Knost Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
Gotta say, as much as I support everything else, I don't agree w/ the uv switching/changing/increasing at all. imo that wouldn't be fair to donator's.
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
03-29-2012 02:13 PM
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Post: #13
RE: Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
Ok, it sounds reasonable that swapping uv will ruin the sense of donating in order to get a very good legendary. I did not mind this while supporting the suggestions and now I'm against it too (because it leads to spamming good natured legs).

But a possibility to sacrifice "useless" monsters would be great. I don't tink of a big price for it. When you could start a minigame, earn a few exp or just get the monsterbox, that back would be fine.
In opposite to all of you, I don't need to be better than others. Tongue
03-30-2012 02:59 AM
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quarts21 Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
(03-29-2012 06:31 AM)quarts21 Wrote:  I am a P.I.G.~!

my thoughts on sacrificing monsters for increased uvs:

1) If we set it so along with sacrificing a monster it also costed 1 million gold the cost suddenly becomes more and now perhaps donators and non donators can be happy =)

2) To increase one uv u must lose in another uv, for instance u wanna increase sp atack of a halls monster, then u pay the nessary fees (monster of the same type and gold) and get sp atk uv = +1 but u have to choose another stat to set to -2. Aka sp atk = +1 you choose to subtract def so def= -2. I hope this part was clear it was bit hard getting my point across sorry =(

3) There will obviously have to be a limit to how high u can get one stat so as donators wont be angry. I feel 40 is a reasonable number beacause even though your bringing your best stat to a high value other stats will suffer and your monster will never be as good as a donators monster

Let me know what you think again i remind you im just brain storming =)

and good job dan! Be a P.I.G.!!!!!
ok scratch that a lot of donators are completly against changing uvs of non-donated monsters and this is understandable.

instead of this as a monster sink we could instead implement it into a breeding system were u sacrifice a male and female version of a monster to get the same monster in its baby stage (with a new set of random UVs and nature)

there plain and simple what do u guys think lets not let the economy fall just cause we couldn't think of an idea keep the ideas flowing guys ^_^
04-13-2012 05:40 AM
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fjkulit Away
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Post: #15
RE: Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
i suppport Big Grin
be a p.i.g. lol Big Grin
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04-13-2012 11:32 AM
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CeFurkan Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Gold - and Monstersink / Economy
Some nice ideas. Might be added at the new design.
04-15-2012 07:48 PM
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