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Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
minordaddy Offline
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Post: #1
Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
The majority of us that have discussed this issue all agree that the new Elo system isn't fit for overall ranking. 

Some believe they shouldn't be forced to participate in Elo battles for rank, maybe if it were real pvp battles it would be fun but not many players are interested in grinding cpu battles when we already have npc trainers for that.

Other players believe the system is completely unfair since in some cases it can make beating a team too hard or on the other hand make a team too easy to beat. 

I myself find the system far too easy to manipulate and really can't come up with anything that could stop it completely.
We as a community already stated we didn't want it to effect rank at all or give it a separate rank since the system is measuring absolutely nothing since cpu teams are easily beaten. 

I did some tests and I have found multiple ways to abuse the system which can be done by using an alt or just having a partner that doesn't care for elo ranks.

First is the rematch system, this can be abused because it allows to be able to rematch a player whenever they want. For example after surrendering fifty plus battles to lower one's elo rank.

[Image: elo%20league%20battle%20low%20score_zpscbfm1wyd.jpg]

Only took about ten minutes to lower my alt's elo rank to 0 that way I take the highest possible points from my target.

Now choosing a target is easy, just go for the player that I myself have to compete with, which would be Geth.
And lucky me I can rematch him whenever I want.

[Image: Elo%20league%20battles_zpsd2vobkwn.jpg]

Now the catch, I can either transfer an entire team to my alt which is what I did in this example or I could possibly transfer enough gold to fix a team on my alt so there would be no need to transfer, completely blocking the "make a rule against using an alt idea"

[Image: transfer%20mons_zpslhetcgbt.jpg]

Now that I have my team I'm ready to hit my target.

[Image: elo%20league%20battle%20beating%20the%20...bop2yx.jpg]

Of course you will notice that I won't be able to gain rank on my main account by using this method but I can certainly lower the rank 2 in elo by taking more points from him than he will earn in a day.
This method can also be used by two players helping each other and since you can't make a rule against trading or selling there is really no way to stop abuse of this kind.

The system itself requires every single player that participates to actually care about elo rank, problem is no matter what, that will never happen. The majority of players are already against elo completely and have already stopped actively competing in it except for players that enjoy the fast rank with little effort.

We understand that the system is a work in progress but maybe while it's a work in progress it should be removed from ranks until it's actually working as well as it should or maybe until it's actually pvp.
06-04-2016 01:28 PM
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springlilies Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
If we are going to have this system, it should be fair, competitive and without glitches, and it definitely should not be a part of rank. Unfortunately, it is none of these.
06-04-2016 02:09 PM
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kongue18 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
The elo system should be separate from the overall ranks because of all the loopholes it contains. Which Minor has simply presented on his post. Mabye find a better way to accurately measure a players strength?
06-04-2016 02:46 PM
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Galliant Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
I agree.
As long as it is just CPU, Elo won't be fair or good enough to be a viable 500k TP. 
So at the very least, it shouldn't affect rank until either enough players participate, or it'll turn to live PvP.
Of course,  a separate rank would he even better,  so that we have a PvP rank for the PvPers, which aren't forced to get PvE ranking that way,  and vice versa.
Let's just go and see the world and just show them
What it really means to live life golden.

The Rekfast Club
06-04-2016 08:28 PM
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tianchai5451 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
I'm agreed with this, elo system should be fixed or just separate it from rank
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06-05-2016 12:58 AM
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terrorblade Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
agree with this
(This post was last modified: 06-05-2016 01:51 AM by terrorblade.)
06-05-2016 01:51 AM
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gethprime Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
yup, this is something that i already mentioned to Cef so i agree with Minordaddy completely Smile
06-05-2016 01:54 AM
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James Quinn Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
I agree this this 100% and it would be best for all players in the long term new and only so may undeserved ranks because of this flaw.
06-05-2016 01:59 AM
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lorderich Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
Was asked to reply so here it is.I don't care for elo system period.we were better of without it.I'd rather see more ways to create income on here.maybe buying and owning properties.seen it on other games.
06-05-2016 02:01 AM
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idiot482 Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
I think the amount of influence elo should have on top trainers rank should be lowered, but should still affect the ranks. With that being said, the battles themselves should somehow be live instead of against ai, it seems rather counterproductive since ai players seem to be weaker to their actual live counterparts and since ranks depend on these battles it's really unfair. Although I say this, I dont' know how such a system would be implemented and if it can't then it shouldn't affect rank at all since it's so unfair.
06-05-2016 02:31 AM
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satra227 Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
I agreed with this
06-05-2016 04:39 AM
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Darranius Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
a computer will never react the same way a player will do. and having a cpu battle is the same as fighting computer on the map eccept that they have the abilities and nature choosed by the player. there should be a separate pvp ranking and point in that category should only be earned in live pvp match. elo isn't a fair pvp systeme, mainly cuz fighting a cpu team is pve and not pvp in fact. so i agree.
06-05-2016 01:36 PM
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CeFurkan Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
guys removing a system is not an improvement

if AI is not good enough then think about how we can improve the system

so do brain storming to fix glitches and such stuff

i am open every suggestion to improve the system
(This post was last modified: 06-10-2016 07:20 AM by CeFurkan.)
06-10-2016 07:19 AM
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Galliant Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
(06-10-2016 07:19 AM)CeFurkan Wrote:  guys removing a system is not an improvement

if AI is not good enough then think about how we can improve the system

so do brain storming to fix glitches and such stuff

i am open every suggestion to improve the system

It's not about removing a system. 
It's merely and solely about getting elo out of the ranking.
It shouldn't award 500k or 400k or any amount of Trainer Points. 
Having ELO on here is great. 
And we all know that this is a sort of test run  till we have enough players to make it work with actual non cpu pvp.

The problem is, getting an AI as good to make it considerable for rankings,  is something out of reach I'm afraid. 

ELO can be abused as shown in the original post,  it's way to simple just against an AI.
And CPU means it's unfair, too unfair to be included as a ranking factor.

All we ask for on here is,  get elo out of the actual player ranking system.

Including a seperate ranking for ELO would still be the best option tho.
Let's just go and see the world and just show them
What it really means to live life golden.

The Rekfast Club
06-10-2016 09:08 AM
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CeFurkan Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
(06-10-2016 09:08 AM)Galliant Wrote:  
(06-10-2016 07:19 AM)CeFurkan Wrote:  guys removing a system is not an improvement

if AI is not good enough then think about how we can improve the system

so do brain storming to fix glitches and such stuff

i am open every suggestion to improve the system

It's not about removing a system. 
It's merely and solely about getting elo out of the ranking.
It shouldn't award 500k or 400k or any amount of Trainer Points. 
Having ELO on here is great. 
And we all know that this is a sort of test run  till we have enough players to make it work with actual non cpu pvp.

The problem is, getting an AI as good to make it considerable for rankings,  is something out of reach I'm afraid. 

ELO can be abused as shown in the original post,  it's way to simple just against an AI.
And CPU means it's unfair, too unfair to be included as a ranking factor.

All we ask for on here is,  get elo out of the actual player ranking system.

Including a seperate ranking for ELO would still be the best option tho.

i dont plan to remove elo system from ranking

if it can be abused sure it can be fixed too

i did a great update to AI and we can improve it a way that close to expert player and can not be abused

i am open to suggestions improvements system but not removing it
06-10-2016 10:34 PM
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springlilies Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
It really needs to be lowered then. There are so many unhappy players over this. I fear a lot will leave.
06-11-2016 08:51 AM
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springlilies Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
I just played this for a while, moving up .89 points per game. Lost one game which cost me over 28 points. The ELO system is geared to allow new players to game rank quickly without having to do the work your long time players (who have supported the game, helped new players, donated real money, given monsters to new players, answered questions time and time again) have done. It is unfair and tells me that you are not valuing those of us who have been supporting your game. In addition, I know this system, if it continues, will cause a mass exodus. If this is what you want then continue it the way things are. HOWEVER, if you truly care about your players, those of us who have supported you for YEARS then do something about this system and make a ranking system that is fair for all your players, new and old.
06-15-2016 02:57 AM
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CeFurkan Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
(06-15-2016 02:57 AM)springlilies Wrote:  I just played this for a while, moving up .89 points per game. Lost one game which cost me over 28 points. The ELO system is geared to allow new players to game rank quickly without having to do the work your long time players (who have supported the game, helped new players, donated real money, given monsters to new players, answered questions time and time again) have done. It is unfair and tells me that you are not valuing those of us who have been supporting your game. In addition, I know this system, if it continues, will cause a mass exodus. If this is what you want then continue it the way things are. HOWEVER, if you truly care about your players, those of us who have supported you for YEARS then do something about this system and make a ranking system that is fair for all your players, new and old.

how is that benefiting new players more than you while you certainly can collect more points?

please explain to me
06-15-2016 06:16 AM
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springlilies Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
All ranking factors besides elo, = 500k.
Elo = 500k.
So elo + badges (which basically everyone collects) = 600k compared to 500k.
Elo is destroying all other aspects of this game.
Elo forces someone to farm elo all day long.
For a new player could easily take a no1 spot by doing elo.
 
This system forces players to participate in “PVP.” So, players really no longer need to hunt, build and develop teams (the reason I started and stayed playing this game, as well as donate real money to it). They just need to hunt a few decent one’s, fix them with game gold and farm ELO all day. That is the crux of the problem…. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS FARM ALL DAY TO RANK!!
 
On a personal level, I resent this new ranking system. I have consistently played and supported this game for over 2 years, I help all players on daily basis. I do not now and never have enjoyed PVP. I have hunted, gotten my badges and slowly over time leveled up. The fact that I am now forced to participate in the ELO is wrong, it is not why I started playing this game. I know from speaking to MANY players, that my feelings are popular feelings. These players, like myself, are waiting to see if you change this before we decide if we want to continue playing here or not. It is am unfair system, period.
06-16-2016 01:58 AM
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CeFurkan Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
(06-16-2016 01:58 AM)springlilies Wrote:  All ranking factors besides elo, = 500k.
Elo = 500k.
So elo + badges (which basically everyone collects) = 600k compared to 500k.
Elo is destroying all other aspects of this game.
Elo forces someone to farm elo all day long.
For a new player could easily take a no1 spot by doing elo.
 
This system forces players to participate in “PVP.” So, players really no longer need to hunt, build and develop teams (the reason I started and stayed playing this game, as well as donate real money to it). They just need to hunt a few decent one’s, fix them with game gold and farm ELO all day. That is the crux of the problem…. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS FARM ALL DAY TO RANK!!
 
On a personal level, I resent this new ranking system. I have consistently played and supported this game for over 2 years, I help all players on daily basis. I do not now and never have enjoyed PVP. I have hunted, gotten my badges and slowly over time leveled up. The fact that I am now forced to participate in the ELO is wrong, it is not why I started playing this game. I know from speaking to MANY players, that my feelings are popular feelings. These players, like myself, are waiting to see if you change this before we decide if we want to continue playing here or not. It is am unfair system, period.

ranking points are relative. even if they get equal score as you, you still surpass them with older ranking factors

also all day farming and elo farming are same. both in the end all day farming

i still dont see how is elo benefting new players more than you. you certainly can collect more points than them

please show me 1 example player surpassed you due to elo unfairly

if you are saying i dont want to do elo matching, the other players in that case can tell i dont want to farm

both are same

and with the latest revenge system, i believe we have fixed abuse thing

http://forum.monstermmorpg.com/Thread-Ho...stem-works

if any abuse is left let me know
(This post was last modified: 06-16-2016 07:52 AM by CeFurkan.)
06-16-2016 07:50 AM
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springlilies Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
Cef, First an foremost, no one has surpassed me personally; however this system only benefits new players. 

I hunt, train, and get my badges. That is what I enjoy doing, as do many players (some of whom have already left due to this new ranking system, prominent players and players who have supported this game in many ways for a long time). 

With the new ranking system though, what I enjoy doing only accounts for 1/2 of my points toward rank. As for a specific and personal example, my overall rank is falling because I am not doing the ELO. It will not be long before I am not even in the Top 10 (I do not care about rank though, just an unfair system) Other's who chose to not participate at all plummeted rapidly. I did try it. I do not want to battle for .39 points per battle and then lose 28 points for losing one battle. It is unfair and I will not participate. Other's did not even try.  

There have been a lot of changes in this game since i have begun playing, most good, but a few I have not cared for. In all of those, I have never so fervently complained. I enjoy this game, the players I play with and would like to see them continue, and I would like to continue.

You have to see the problems with this system. You have always been open to discussion, but with this you are closed. I am really so confused over you not doing anything and I know you have heard from many more than just me. Please make adjustments to the ranking system!
(This post was last modified: 06-16-2016 10:53 AM by springlilies.)
06-16-2016 10:14 AM
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minordaddy Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
Regardless of the points earned from elo the system is entirely unfair due to one simple fact. Not one player that has beaten my elo team can actually beat me in a real pvp match, so I believe my rank shouldn't be effected at all by something that doesn't actually determine my teams strength or my pvp skill. 

I have done 4,507 elo league matches and Geth which is rank 2 in elo has only done 517 matches with a mere 138.27 point gap between the two of us, the system is designed to keep a player like me from actually reaching my potential and being light years ahead of second place because the higher rank I am the less points I earn and the more others can earn off me even though they are no match for me in a real battle. Without the cpu being able to switch and accurately select moves there is no way to stop players from beating my team. So yes even though a newer player hasn't passed me it is still completely unfair that anyone can be so close to my rank when they are nowhere near as strong or skilled at pvp as I am.

I was under the impression the elo system would give me some competition but it has not, all it has one is allow players to get closer to my rank without putting in half as much effort as I have. Without real pvp the system is basically the same as battling regular npc trainers which I have already done plenty of. Only difference is these battles determine 50% of my rank while the 29,963 npc battles I have earn nothing....
06-16-2016 09:10 PM
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Post: #23
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
[quote pid='139494' dateline='1466127445']
(06-16-2016 07:50 AM)CeFurkan Wrote:  ranking points are relative. even if they get equal score as you, you still surpass them with older ranking factors

i still dont see how is elo benefting new players more than you. you certainly can collect more points than them
If you study the top ranked players, it clearly shows that I am correct and this is beginning to happen. ELO should NOT be included in rank!
[/quote]
(This post was last modified: 06-17-2016 11:55 AM by springlilies.)
06-17-2016 11:53 AM
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Galliant Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
Pretty simple. 
Some players enjoy farming cpu battles, some do not.
Somd players enjoy lvling monsters and catching them, some do not.

The later have done over 2 years of it.
I have done half a year, with the rest of my playtime being watching chat.
In the end, I was able to rank 4th overall by merely being second in ELO.
I have put nowhere near as much effort or time into going for rank than any of the old top 10 have.
Why? 
Their effort got halved. 
And I just had to not even do 150battles.

This system is forcing 2 opposing kind of players to share the same ranking system, with only (that is fact) newer players or pvpers benefitting from it.
I was around rank 40 before elo, I had fixed a team for pvp, some top 10 players didn't, because pvp isn't what they've been playing for.
CPU may get fixed over time, but the human flexibility is missing. 
No switchouts, no mistakes, just chances.
It's insanely easy to just suicide move the best of teams, while the defensive elo team is unaffected by that.

So if a new player is able to just get 6, and fix the nature, kamikaze his way to top 5 of ELO, he will end up in the Top 10.

The main problem I see is, that 2 player groups are forced to share the same ranking, with the PvErs pulling the short straw, for they have x factors valuing less than the PvPers having just one.

Avg lvl, avg exp, total exp, with DMS are what PvErs go for.
ELO is what PvPers will go for.
Money and Badges is something both will go for anyways.

So going by just cold calculation, you have 

625K for PvPers, with elo clearly being a case of mere weeks.
Compared with 500k for what PvErs go for, and that is work of years done already. 

So yes, while some of the old guys could collect more points, it doesn't mean it justifies the amount of time in something they don't like to play for.
(PP and M3O both have a new top 10 filled mainly with people which wouldn't be anywhere better than top 30).

That's why 2 rankings would be the best imo.
Make both player groups happy.

For CPU doesn't determine skill.
Let's just go and see the world and just show them
What it really means to live life golden.

The Rekfast Club
(This post was last modified: 06-18-2016 01:22 AM by Galliant.)
06-18-2016 01:19 AM
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springlilies Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
CeFurkan, I am really a bit taken aback by your lack of action and your lack of response. As I wrote earlier, your actions (or lack of actions) are telling me that you simply do not care about my concerns or the concerns of the players who have supported this game for several years. Many older players have already become inactive. I, personally, believed that you would do the right thing and take the ELO system out of ranking. You have asked for proof, been given proof time and time again. What reason can you possibly have to ignore those of us who have supported this game for so long. I honestly do not understand your thinking or your motivations.
06-18-2016 11:45 PM
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Santy Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
(06-16-2016 07:50 AM)CeFurkan Wrote:  
(06-16-2016 01:58 AM)springlilies Wrote:  All ranking factors besides elo, = 500k.
Elo = 500k.
So elo + badges (which basically everyone collects) = 600k compared to 500k.
Elo is destroying all other aspects of this game.
Elo forces someone to farm elo all day long.
For a new player could easily take a no1 spot by doing elo.
 
This system forces players to participate in “PVP.” So, players really no longer need to hunt, build and develop teams (the reason I started and stayed playing this game, as well as donate real money to it). They just need to hunt a few decent one’s, fix them with game gold and farm ELO all day. That is the crux of the problem…. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS FARM ALL DAY TO RANK!!
 
On a personal level, I resent this new ranking system. I have consistently played and supported this game for over 2 years, I help all players on daily basis. I do not now and never have enjoyed PVP. I have hunted, gotten my badges and slowly over time leveled up. The fact that I am now forced to participate in the ELO is wrong, it is not why I started playing this game. I know from speaking to MANY players, that my feelings are popular feelings. These players, like myself, are waiting to see if you change this before we decide if we want to continue playing here or not. It is am unfair system, period.

ranking points are relative. even if they get equal score as you, you still surpass them with older ranking factors

also all day farming and elo farming are same. both in the end all day farming

i still dont see how is elo benefting new players more than you. you certainly can collect more points than them

please show me 1 example player surpassed you due to elo unfairly

if you are saying i dont want to do elo matching, the other players in that case can tell i dont want to farm

both are same

and with the latest revenge system, i believe we have fixed abuse thing

http://forum.monstermmorpg.com/Thread-Ho...stem-works

if any abuse is left let me know

So far i heard (because i didnt test it myself to be honest) its not a good system.. I don't like it at all...
If you have some decent skill based ranking like have real ranking pvp style matches for people with strong teams > separate it from the other ranking. 
- Have a rank with players that play a lot 
- Have a skilled rank based thing on everyones profile, like you can check the gold, badges and other stuff on other profiles

=> But don't try to mix something most players don't want. I only hear complaining.
=> Im just reading Galliant his post, he also is talking about 2 rankings wich is the logic way to go.
            thx PRYSMA 2
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(This post was last modified: 06-20-2016 01:46 AM by Santy.)
06-20-2016 01:42 AM
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minordaddy (06-20-2016), springlilies (06-23-2016)
minordaddy Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
Cef,
Removing the system isn't what we are concerned about. The fact that Elo is taking up half overall rank when it barely takes any effort is the issue. A player can battle less than 200 times and earn over 400k total trainer points, that is a couple hours of work for some players while all other ranks take months and months to achieve that many points. I don't understand how this could possibly be acceptable in a game that is rank driven. And it's obviously not acceptable to the majority of players.
You said yourself the game was meant to be pvp based which is great, would love for it to be that way but elo is far from pvp and not worth the amount of trainer points it takes up.
Reducing elo total trainer points from 500k to 100k would be a fine compromise or what the majority of the players want is to completely separate Elo rank from overall rank, pvpers never wanted overall rank to begin with only rankers wanted overall rank.
When elo was added you said if the 500k trainer points continued to be an issue you would reduce it, well I believe it is still an issue and we would like you to reduce it.
06-27-2016 02:37 PM
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Cpt. Obvious Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
The ELO-system should stay, it keeps people learning/active/gain strength in order to beat those whose ELO is high

However, the effect on rank is really high, I got to rank 13 on the other site with 1.4k ELO (not even highest) and barely 30 pokemon in storage.
On here I could easily get higher with maybe 3/4 people who'd I have difficulties in beating.

So, I do see where they're coming from

P.S.edit: Kun, played here - rank 1 on PP now: It's not fair for non-pvpers as well, rank will always be affected this way. It would be easier, as proven on other sites and games, if it would be kept seperate (PVP ranking with elo and regular ranking)
P.P.S.edit: Harry, also from PP: A lot of people gain rank way too easy when they have a possible 'army' helping them gain rank by hunting for them, farming gold for them.. so they only need to perform in ELO's to be rank 1. Also, people donate on here (monstermmorpg) so if they donate enough to get all the ancients, they immediatly have the superior advantage over most of the regular users and also just need to go for ELO.
In matters of truth and justice, there is no difference between large and small problems.
For issues concerning the treatment of people are all the same.

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(This post was last modified: 06-28-2016 11:42 PM by Cpt. Obvious.)
06-28-2016 10:13 PM
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minordaddy (06-29-2016)
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Post: #29
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
(06-28-2016 10:13 PM)Cpt. Obvious Wrote:  The ELO-system should stay, it keeps people learning/active/gain strength in order to beat those whose ELO is high

However, the effect on rank is really high, I got to rank 13 on the other site with 1.4k ELO (not even highest) and barely 30 pokemon in storage.
On here I could easily get higher with maybe 3/4 people who'd I have difficulties in beating.

So, I do see where they're coming from

P.S.edit: Kun, played here - rank 1 on PP now: It's not fair for non-pvpers as well, rank will always be affected this way. It would be easier, as proven on other sites and games, if it would be kept seperate (PVP ranking with elo and regular ranking)
P.P.S.edit: Harry, also from PP: A lot of people gain rank way too easy when they have a possible 'army' helping them gain rank by hunting for them, farming gold for them.. so they only need to perform in ELO's to be rank 1. Also, people donate on here (monstermmorpg) so if they donate enough to get all the ancients, they immediatly have the superior advantage over most of the regular users and also just need to go for ELO.

This is very true, I'm basically the only player on here that is safe from having my rank taken by a player that just does elo. Take Jeva for example, took rank 3 in less than a month by simply donating for a team and catching monsters, barely has done any work on actually training them and sits at rank 3. 
That is extremely unfair to players that have actually played the game so it seems to me like the system is only making it easy for new players to rank up fast and making it much harder for old players to maintain rank without spending a lot of time on elo when we have better things to do.
Elo is practically giving undeserved rank to new players simply because they have a decent team, though as I said in my earlier statements these players aren't even good at real pvp and yet they have high elo ranks because it isn't real pvp.
Not one player that has beaten my team could beat me once out of a hundred battles but elo makes it possible, this doesn't deserve so much rank for simply beating a cpu team.
06-29-2016 05:43 AM
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Post: #30
RE: Elo system shouldn't effect overall rank
Post deleted because I changed my mind.
(This post was last modified: 07-04-2016 04:56 PM by Catja47.)
07-01-2016 08:48 PM
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