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Accuracy and Evasion reliability issues in V2
(04-29-2013, 11:20 AM)orboknown Wrote: Whaddya suggest Der uri? Might as welk slaughter the whole system while were at it
@orboknown
Thanks for that...that really is a word for word statement of what I said.

Please you should be my official spokesperson Rolleyes


@Remmy cute...a very cute response
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Mhmm.... support...
Everything is about accurary and evasion now.

Also I hate the +5 acc of trembling grimarrow Tongue
Also, I pvp'ed viet's stromeleon and it raised its acc so that he is sure to strike with a prior 1 move with 170 base power.... seems legit...

Maybe get rid of accurary/evasion master/decreaser ? Since 30% helps much...
...add me to the list knosty. In version 1 we did have 25/400 acc/eva...and yet the only evasion/ acc play that came close to working was using predict...a prio move that raised evasion 3stages (the full 5 if you had evasion armor on) and at that time there was only 2 known moves with higher or equal prio iirc (legendary power(equal prio) and chase down (5 prio)) and the only unmissable stat reset move was black mist...which sadly wasnt on very many monsters at all...and only 1 zenith plus mon iirc again.

anyways to sum; I believe that having the old system of 25/400 a and e with the new move pools would work out quite well...
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got my support Smile
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(04-30-2013, 01:21 AM)Arlaxeon Wrote: Mhmm.... support...
Everything is about accurary and evasion now.

Also I hate the +5 acc of trembling grimarrow Tongue
Also, I pvp'ed viet's stromeleon and it raised its acc so that he is sure to strike with a prior 1 move with 170 base power.... seems legit...

Maybe get rid of accurary/evasion master/decreaser ? Since 30% helps much...
imma have to disagree with that last statement,it keeps low acc. moves useful
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(04-29-2013, 08:57 PM)Mister Emmisary Wrote: My issue with this is two things.

  1. 25%/400%(Eva/Acc)?! That seems like a bit much, that's double what it currently is, and would probably change things a lot more than you imagine. (The actual pokemon games run on a roughly 33.3%/300%(Eva/Acc) scale, topping that is risky at best.)

    25%/400%(Acc/EvasionIsn't that risky because the game has seen it before and PVP was great. Strategy was being used more than it is now because you could switch in and out with some reliability. Also because Acc and Evasion was higher (right) you had to account for it (more strategy) which imo is a must.

    I've thought through this change so it won't change more than I imagine. 



  2. The new move pool. I don't know when it's coming out, but it will, so I think it'd be smarter to wait until it did before changing something like this.

    I'm working closely with the person who's making the new move pool so I know for a fact that not only will this fixed accuracy / evasion system work with the current moves, but it will work even better with the new moves. 

    The reasons for this fact are these. The accuracy of the moves will be getting a slight boost (rounding up), moves will be more widely and selectively distributed, and moves will have more reliable (it's gonna be a thing watch) effects.
     



These are just my main points, I'll go a bit more into detail later.

Fun.

Now, I'd like some kind of hit chance calculator, or something. Exactly how much does Evasion Master, Evasion Armor, and a +5 to evasion calculate out to? Knowing this would probably give a better understanding of the current system for everyone.

I imagine the calculations start at about 100 over 100. So with that in mind:
Code:
100/100 (Accuracy/Evasion)
-2 in accuracy is 80/100, which equals 80% of whatever move used.
80% of a 65% chance move is 52%.

-5 in accuracy and +5 evasion is 50/200, which equals 25%.
25% of a 65% chance move is 16% rounded.

Armors/abilities take off the percentage 'after' the above's been calculated.
So, with Accuracy Decreaser, Evasion Master, and Evasion Armor...
Minus 15% of 50 = 42, accuracy.
Add 45% of 200 = 290, evasion.
42% over 290% = 14% rounded.
And 14% of a 65% move is 9% rounded.

If any of that is wrong, pardon me. But the point is you can reduce a 100% accuracy move down to about 14% with the right additions. I just don't see the problem with the current system. =/

Upping it to 25%/400%, or even 33.3%/300% would make it 6% and 11%, respectively. A one in 20 chance of hitting the opponent with 100% moves seems silly to me. I understand there's stat reset moves, but looking at the base values gives a better example of things than possible moveset changes. Maybe if we had more guaranteed (not 1000%) hit moves, it'd make a good argument, and/or if emissary/zenith monsters could learn Stat Guard.


Like I said earlier, the moves will be getting a slight accuracy boost so that takes care of your last sentence. As for the rest, I've said it 900 times and I'll say it again, a 20% chance to hit is way too much. If you get an enemy monsters accuracy down to -5 and get your evasion up to +5, you should almost never be hit. A 20% chance isn't acceptable for almost never being hit. 

There should be reliability in PVP if there isn't then you're just feeding PVP to luck, which is unacceptable and short sighted.

But as it is, this seems silly, and I don't understand how your opponent hitting you 1/5th of the time is so horrible. Maybe you shouldn't waste all your time setting up. You know, it's called strategy?


Maybe this is because you don't use a switch in strategy? IDK 

Whatever your problem with this is there's no reason to have an attitude. I haven't done anything to you personally so lets try to stay mature here. 

As for your last argument. 1/5 would at least be reliable lol, but unfortunately that's not how our game works. It works off of a percentage chance. So it's a 20% chance to hit every turn which, as people who PVP often can tell you, will turn into multiple hit's in a row from a monster that has no business hitting anything. 

You want "strategy" throw in reliability so that the plan you come up with work's every time. I know it's easier to attack needlessly and hit because the acc/evasion percentages are messed up, but  this game is played by smart people that put a lot of time into coming up with sound strategies. Leaving something as important as Acc and evasion up to chance, because you don't see how it's "so horrible" doesn't work. I see how it's horrible and it need's to change. 

BTW  "Maybe you shouldn't waste all your time setting up. You know, it's called strategy?"  Setting up is strategy guy, wait till this issue isn't broken anymore and you'll understand that.


So yeah, no support here, just thought I'd point some things out.

Thanks for stopping by.

Note: If you skip over anything that I wrote, please don't bother replying/quoting me. -_-

You're welcome.
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
(04-30-2013, 01:21 AM)Arlaxeon Wrote: Mhmm.... support...
Everything is about accurary and evasion now.

Also I hate the +5 acc of trembling grimarrow Tongue
Also, I pvp'ed viet's stromeleon and it raised its acc so that he is sure to strike with a prior 1 move with 170 base power.... seems legit...

Maybe get rid of accurary/evasion master/decreaser ? Since 30% helps much...
Those abilities are fine. They're a little too strong right now because  the acc/evasion stuff is messed up. Thus why we need to fix it lol
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
This has been my biggest complaint and hopefully it gets fixed Smile

Kame agrees 100%
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I agree *dances*
Thanks everyone. 

I'm not sure how many more supporters we can get lol Not that many people active in chat as far as I can see.
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
Zoidberg, who just had his first pvp debacle and won thanks you a lucky shot, agrees too.
He does not have a forum acc
In matters of truth and justice, there is no difference between large and small problems.
For issues concerning the treatment of people are all the same.

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Sign me up! This has been driving me absolutely insane! Im tired of missing out on hallus and tremblings because i cant take my time and take their health down.
I have noticed this phenomena myself, though i don't know the math as well as others, and don't want to get real into it, i agree with you knost. i think the system should be rethought and improved.
Added both of you! Smile Thanks

BTW awesome avatar Snes.
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
thanks, 
i hope this works out
(04-30-2013, 12:04 AM)UritheLostLight Wrote:
(04-29-2013, 11:20 AM)orboknown Wrote: Whaddya suggest Der uri? Might as welk slaughter the whole system while were at it
@orboknown
Thanks for that...that really is a word for word statement of what I said.

Please you should be my official spokesperson Rolleyes


@Remmy cute...a very cute response
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@Remmy Now you lost me...
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The Bloodbath Arena Leader for the Legends Guild.
My Monster Fanfiction story!
(04-30-2013, 12:04 AM)UritheLostLight Wrote:
(04-29-2013, 11:20 AM)orboknown Wrote: Whaddya suggest Der uri? Might as welk slaughter the whole system while were at it
@orboknown
Thanks for that...that really is a word for word statement of what I said.

Please you should be my official spokesperson Rolleyes


@Remmy cute...a very cute response

Not sure if serious or sarcasm. I wanted to know what you had in mind since you alluded to having mire issues or proposals
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i agree
Thanks Lekad.
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
...Hmmm... sounds legit I support.
You've definitely got my support on this. I've actually been noticing this since I came back, although I really can't judge v1's accuracy and evasion, since I was barely there.
i like how the system is right now
1) this prevent from having every monster having to run cleanse for clear stats
2) this also prevent form 1 shoot your whole team because other guy got advatge in start of the fight and matching becames very one sided
3) this is where walls come in i have a monster which start out with 130% evasion and has 15% acc dec. if u do the math of 
Enemy Attack Base ACC* Monster Base Acc / Enemy base Evasion
= Enemy Attack Base Acc * 65% hit chance. 
and if u run evasion sheild you 1.495 base evasion
Enemy Attack Base ACC* Monster Base Acc / Enemy base Evasion
= Enemy Attack Base Acc * 57% getting hit chance. 
that good number if u get it any lower then this then it all that matter then is that if u have accient monster who can +3 any move which is bull crap
(04-30-2013, 09:24 AM)mikeheck Wrote:
i like how the system is right now
1) this prevent from having every monster having to run cleanse for clear stats


You should have to anyways. Allowing people to rely on lucky hit's is terrible for this games PVP credibility. The way it is now we basically have the lane bumpers (bowling analogy) up for children to PVP with lol

If we want serious PVP players to join our game and help it grow we have to make people earn what they get in PVP, rather than just skating by on luck and poor planning. 


2) this also prevent form 1 shoot your whole team because other guy got advatge in start of the fight and matching becames very one sided

If you plan correctly this shouldn't happen. Also, this is more likely in the game as it is now. Without increased acc/evasion a Glass Cannon w/ acc master and an acc weapon could run through your entire team. The reason because the lowest you could lower their accuracy would be to 67% whcih means they would still hit more often than not and sweep your team.

Once the acc and evasion percentages are increased you could lower a Glass cannons Acc low enough to stop its onslaught. 

3) this is where walls come in i have a monster which start out with 130% evasion and has 15% acc dec. if u do the math of 
Enemy Attack Base ACC* Monster Base Acc / Enemy base Evasion
= Enemy Attack Base Acc * 65% hit chance. 
and if u run evasion sheild you 1.495 base evasion
Enemy Attack Base ACC* Monster Base Acc / Enemy base Evasion
= Enemy Attack Base Acc * 57% getting hit chance. 
that good number if u get it any lower then this then it all that matter then is that if u have accient monster who can +3 any move which is bull crap


It's not bull crap, its Strategy lol I have monsters with abilities like your's that will become a little less effective with this change, but I'm willing to give that up for the betterment of the game and PVP. 

You will still have an advantage. No worries. Smile

Thanks for the comments!
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
Added Lake and Spirit! Thanks Guys!
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
(04-30-2013, 09:48 AM)Knost Wrote:
(04-30-2013, 09:24 AM)mikeheck Wrote: You should have to anyways. Allowing people to rely on lucky hit's is terrible for this games PVP credibility. The way it is now we basically have the lane bumpers (bowling analogy) up for children to PVP with lol

If we want serious PVP players to join our game and help it grow we have to make people earn what they get in PVP, rather than just skating by on luck and poor planning. 


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(04-30-2013, 09:57 AM)iRemember Wrote:
(04-30-2013, 09:48 AM)Knost Wrote:
(04-30-2013, 09:24 AM)mikeheck Wrote: You should have to anyways. Allowing people to rely on lucky hit's is terrible for this games PVP credibility. The way it is now we basically have the lane bumpers (bowling analogy) up for children to PVP with lol

If we want serious PVP players to join our game and help it grow we have to make people earn what they get in PVP, rather than just skating by on luck and poor planning. 


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In matters of truth and justice, there is no difference between large and small problems.
For issues concerning the treatment of people are all the same.

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Aye, Supported!
Thank you sir!
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
Glad to see this much support
In matters of truth and justice, there is no difference between large and small problems.
For issues concerning the treatment of people are all the same.

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