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Accuracy and Evasion reliability issues in V2
#91
Whaddya suggest Der uri? Might as welk slaughter the whole system while were at it
Quote: Do you hear the Whisper Men The Whisper Men are near
If you hear the Whisper Men then turn away your ears
Do not hear the Whisper Men whatever else you do
For once you've heard the Whisper Men they'll stop. And look at you.
#92
(04-29-2013, 11:17 AM)TheLegendsGuild Wrote: Ok so Im coming in on three pages of material :-)
For what its worth, I agree with your proposal, but I find it too vague (will explain later on).  
In order to support it, it would require a reformatting of moves, that accuracy and evasion boosts would have to be smaller.  (Say goodbye to -3/+3 boosts)

But my biggest issue is that the issue with PVP extends beyond accuracy/evasion.  And Im not sure if targeting one problem at a time is the way to go.  (I.e moves that reduce 54% of the opponents health is absurd).

I think this should be thought out more.

Oh and BTW Grimarrow should be immune to the accuracy lowering of Tickle... :-p

@Beetall Long time no see :-).  We should PVP sometime.
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#93
i cant see why cefurkan wouldnt do something that wouild inprove his game.
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#94
(04-29-2013, 11:17 AM)TheLegendsGuild Wrote: Ok so Im coming in on three pages of material :-)
For what its worth, I agree with your proposal, but I find it too vague (will explain later on).  
In order to support it, it would require a reformatting of moves, that accuracy and evasion boosts would have to be smaller.  (Say goodbye to -3/+3 boosts)

But my biggest issue is that the issue with PVP extends beyond accuracy/evasion.  And Im not sure if targeting one problem at a time is the way to go.  (I.e moves that reduce 54% of the opponents health is absurd).

I think this should be thought out more.

Oh and BTW Grimarrow should be immune to the accuracy lowering of Tickle... :-p

@Beetall Long time no see :-).  We should PVP sometime.
lol the -3 +3 evasion/acc moves are few and far between. They're also almost exclusively found in Ancient movepool (can't think of a non-ancient that has one anyways). 

As for moves being reformatted, Henrie is working on that now. 

I don't think you will see "extra-damage" moves go away (it upset too many people to rid monsters of them at this point), but you will see them more widely and specifically distributed. 

I know you wan't specifics on moves and such, but that's not the issue here. lol I promise you I'll get you details. 

As for this, the unreliability of acc/evasion percentages is still a huge issue and one that needs to be dealt with before moves are reformatted.
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
#95
Knost, just because cefurkan won't want to do it doesn't mean he shouldnt. I've argued with him too many times, you gotta know hot to persuade him.
Quote: Do you hear the Whisper Men The Whisper Men are near
If you hear the Whisper Men then turn away your ears
Do not hear the Whisper Men whatever else you do
For once you've heard the Whisper Men they'll stop. And look at you.
#96
(04-29-2013, 11:22 AM)Snorlax47 Wrote: i cant see why cefurkan wouldnt do something that wouild inprove his game.
If the system was truly broken completely I could see where he would do a complete over haul. 

That's not the issue though. 

This acc/evasion issue is easily fixed and the raised percentages would be countered with the moves in the games move pools as they are now IMO. 

No reason for a full overhaul.
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
#97
(04-29-2013, 11:26 AM)orboknown Wrote: Knost, just because cefurkan won't want to do it doesn't mean he shouldnt. I've argued with him too many times, you gotta know hot to persuade him.
I don't think it's necessary at this point. 

If we fix this one issue and there is still unrest, then other more extreme options would open up at that point.
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
#98
Fair enough.
Quote: Do you hear the Whisper Men The Whisper Men are near
If you hear the Whisper Men then turn away your ears
Do not hear the Whisper Men whatever else you do
For once you've heard the Whisper Men they'll stop. And look at you.
#99
Hmph,seems to me like were at an arguemtn to no where.

On one end is a suggestion to revise pvp completely and the other end is a suggestion to put the old best pvps back in power.
[Image: 34fxtdy.jpg]
(04-29-2013, 11:31 AM)Snorlax47 Wrote: Hmph,seems to me like were at an arguemtn to no where.

On one end is a suggestion to revise pvp completely and the other end is a suggestion to put the old best pvps back in power.
LOL the "old best pvps" are no more my friend. Just look at poor Gampha and Engiron lol
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
@knost

"The only reason you can provide the example you did was because it's happened to you right?"
Yes, of course. What is your response to counter it? 
"My suggestion would be to switch out to a Glass Cannon or sweeper with Max Guard/Max Acc or a stat resetting move and hit it hard."
Maybe you should read what I say before you post a BS response. Reason 3 was explaining why stat-resets don't counter OP accu-reduction, and in response, you say to use a stat reset. (wut?) Furthermore, what was the other option you provided? Oh that's right, get a sweeper with MAX GUARD, an ancient ability. So your response to fighting people with accu-reduction is using ancients, cool story bro.
The arrogance of success is to think that what you did yesterday will be sufficient for tomorrow.
Village of the Dragon
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hmmmm seems like someone hasnt been updated with the new mons Confused
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Monster Of The Hidden Mist
even if max guard was an ancient ability it doesn't mean people wont have them i do believe legends should be able to have max guard to that way its available to other people who dont use ancients
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Monster Of The Hidden Mist
(04-29-2013, 11:37 AM)Beetall Wrote: @knost

"The only reason you can provide the example you did was because it's happened to you right?"
Yes, of course. What is your response to counter it? 
"My suggestion would be to switch out to a Glass Cannon or sweeper with Max Guard/Max Acc or a stat resetting move and hit it hard."
Maybe you should read what I say before you post a BS response. Reason 3 was explaining why stat-resets don't counter OP accu-reduction, and in response, you say to use a stat reset. (wut?) Furthermore, what was the other option you provided? Oh that's right, get a sweeper with MAX GUARD, an ancient ability. So your response to fighting people with accu-reduction is using ancients, cool story bro.
So much hostility lol Oh well

My point in asking if this had happened to you in v2 was this. If it's already happening how is "we can't do this because this will continue happen" a good point at all? lol It's already happening! Might as well figure out a way around it because, this change happening or not, people will always spam acc decreasing moves. Prepare to be bored lol

Stat resetting moves do work on acc decreasers. In fact, apart from raising your accuracy faster than your opponent is lowering it, it's a perfect counter. They lower, you reset and so forth and so on. 

Also, you wont find moves to be too "op'd" you stay in your own tier lol Zenith monsters should have better moves than emissaries. This is a fact. Whining about it does nothing to solve your problem. 

And to your last point. Yes Max Guard is an Ancient ability, thats why I said "Max Guard/Max Acc" lol


Calm down guy. We're all just thinking out loud here. 
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
(04-29-2013, 11:49 AM)Knost Wrote:
(04-29-2013, 11:37 AM)Beetall Wrote: @knost

"The only reason you can provide the example you did was because it's happened to you right?"
Yes, of course. What is your response to counter it? 
"My suggestion would be to switch out to a Glass Cannon or sweeper with Max Guard/Max Acc or a stat resetting move and hit it hard."
Maybe you should read what I say before you post a BS response. Reason 3 was explaining why stat-resets don't counter OP accu-reduction, and in response, you say to use a stat reset. (wut?) Furthermore, what was the other option you provided? Oh that's right, get a sweeper with MAX GUARD, an ancient ability. So your response to fighting people with accu-reduction is using ancients, cool story bro.
So much hostility lol Oh well

My point in asking if this had happened to you in v2 was this. If it's already happening how is "we can't do this because this will continue happen" a good point at all? lol It's already happening! Might as well figure out a way around it because, this change happening or not, people will always spam acc decreasing moves. Prepare to be bored lol

Stat resetting moves do work on acc decreasers. In fact, apart from raising your accuracy faster than your opponent is lowering it, it's a perfect counter. They lower, you reset and so forth and so on. 

Also you wont find moves to be too "op'd" you stay in your own tier lol Zenith monsters should have better moves than emissaries. This is a fact. Whining about it does nothing to solve your problem. 

And to your last point. Yes Max Guard is an Ancient ability, thats why I said "Max Guard/Max Acc" lol


Calm down guy. We're all just thinking out loud here. 
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The way i see it no one on either side is about to give in to even a little bit of the others reasonings,So why not just wait to see what cefurkan has to say about it.
[Image: 34fxtdy.jpg]
(04-29-2013, 11:56 AM)Snorlax47 Wrote: The way i see it no one on either side is about to give in to even a little bit of the others reasonings,So why not just wait to see what cefurkan has to say about it.
Because Logic will win. 

The point of this thread was to show support for this idea if you supported it. That's still happening.

I don't mind answering questions or concerns.
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
(04-29-2013, 11:25 AM)Knost Wrote:
(04-29-2013, 11:17 AM)TheLegendsGuild Wrote: Ok so Im coming in on three pages of material :-)
For what its worth, I agree with your proposal, but I find it too vague (will explain later on).  
In order to support it, it would require a reformatting of moves, that accuracy and evasion boosts would have to be smaller.  (Say goodbye to -3/+3 boosts)

But my biggest issue is that the issue with PVP extends beyond accuracy/evasion.  And Im not sure if targeting one problem at a time is the way to go.  (I.e moves that reduce 54% of the opponents health is absurd).

I think this should be thought out more.

Oh and BTW Grimarrow should be immune to the accuracy lowering of Tickle... :-p

@Beetall Long time no see :-).  We should PVP sometime.
lol the -3 +3 evasion/acc moves are few and far between. They're also almost exclusively found in Ancient movepool (can't think of a non-ancient that has one anyways). 

As for moves being reformatted, Henrie is working on that now. 

I don't think you will see "extra-damage" moves go away (it upset too many people to rid monsters of them at this point), but you will see them more widely and specifically distributed. 

I know you wan't specifics on moves and such, but that's not the issue here. lol I promise you I'll get you details. 

As for this, the unreliability of acc/evasion percentages is still a huge issue and one that needs to be dealt with before moves are reformatted.
Agreed.  :-) 
My only thing to say is that you would want to change the +3/-3 on some level.

Regardless, you can put me on your list in support of the change as UritheLostLight.  (Not the LegendsGuild lol, its not a guild endorsement and Im too lazy to log out ;-))
Because that's dull ^
Also the debate helps spawn the solution
Quote: Do you hear the Whisper Men The Whisper Men are near
If you hear the Whisper Men then turn away your ears
Do not hear the Whisper Men whatever else you do
For once you've heard the Whisper Men they'll stop. And look at you.
(04-29-2013, 12:01 PM)TheLegendsGuild Wrote:
(04-29-2013, 11:25 AM)Knost Wrote:
(04-29-2013, 11:17 AM)TheLegendsGuild Wrote: Ok so Im coming in on three pages of material :-)
For what its worth, I agree with your proposal, but I find it too vague (will explain later on).  
In order to support it, it would require a reformatting of moves, that accuracy and evasion boosts would have to be smaller.  (Say goodbye to -3/+3 boosts)

But my biggest issue is that the issue with PVP extends beyond accuracy/evasion.  And Im not sure if targeting one problem at a time is the way to go.  (I.e moves that reduce 54% of the opponents health is absurd).

I think this should be thought out more.

Oh and BTW Grimarrow should be immune to the accuracy lowering of Tickle... :-p

@Beetall Long time no see :-).  We should PVP sometime.
lol the -3 +3 evasion/acc moves are few and far between. They're also almost exclusively found in Ancient movepool (can't think of a non-ancient that has one anyways). 

As for moves being reformatted, Henrie is working on that now. 

I don't think you will see "extra-damage" moves go away (it upset too many people to rid monsters of them at this point), but you will see them more widely and specifically distributed. 

I know you wan't specifics on moves and such, but that's not the issue here. lol I promise you I'll get you details. 

As for this, the unreliability of acc/evasion percentages is still a huge issue and one that needs to be dealt with before moves are reformatted.
Agreed.  :-) 
My only thing to say is that you would want to change the +3/-3 on some level.

Regardless, you can put me on your list in support of the change as UritheLostLight.  (Not the LegendsGuild lol, its not a guild endorsement and Im too lazy to log out ;-))
Sounds great Uri. Thanks for the logical thinking Smile
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
yea,truebut knost i pmed you in game.
[Image: 34fxtdy.jpg]
(04-29-2013, 12:02 PM)Snorlax47 Wrote: yea,truebut knost i pmed you in game.
I replied. I was responding to you here so I didn't see anything happen in chat lol
"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
i agree

i'd pvp with staff before, and i lower his alaclipse acc to 50% and my cocatut had 180% evsion. but that alaclipse hit cocatut and my other monster with 100%-180% evasion
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I agree.
Added Zero0Shift
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"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be"
yes I agree
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Way to go guys
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My issue with this is two things.
  1. 25%/400%(Eva/Acc)?! That seems like a bit much, that's double what it currently is, and would probably change things a lot more than you imagine. (The actual pokemon games run on a roughly 33.3%/300%(Eva/Acc) scale, topping that is risky at best.)
  2. The new move pool. I don't know when it's coming out, but it will, so I think it'd be smarter to wait until it did before changing something like this.
These are just my main points, I'll go a bit more into detail later.

Now, I'd like some kind of hit chance calculator, or something. Exactly how much does Evasion Master, Evasion Armor, and a +5 to evasion calculate out to? Knowing this would probably give a better understanding of the current system for everyone.

I imagine the calculations start at about 100 over 100. So with that in mind:
Code:
100/100 (Accuracy/Evasion)
-2 in accuracy is 80/100, which equals 80% of whatever move used.
80% of a 65% chance move is 52%.

-5 in accuracy and +5 evasion is 50/200, which equals 25%.
25% of a 65% chance move is 16% rounded.

Armors/abilities take off the percentage 'after' the above's been calculated.
So, with Accuracy Decreaser, Evasion Master, and Evasion Armor...
Minus 15% of 50 = 42, accuracy.
Add 45% of 200 = 290, evasion.
42% over 290% = 14% rounded.
And 14% of a 65% move is 9% rounded.

If any of that is wrong, pardon me. But the point is you can reduce a 100% accuracy move down to about 14% with the right additions. I just don't see the problem with the current system. =/

Upping it to 25%/400%, or even 33.3%/300% would make it 6% and 11%, respectively. A one in 20 chance of hitting the opponent with 100% moves seems silly to me. I understand there's stat reset moves, but looking at the base values gives a better example of things than possible moveset changes. Maybe if we had more guaranteed (not 1000%) hit moves, it'd make a good argument, and/or if emissary/zenith monsters could learn Stat Guard.

But as it is, this seems silly, and I don't understand how your opponent hitting you 1/5th of the time is so horrible. Maybe you shouldn't waste all your time setting up. You know, it's called strategy?

So yeah, no support here, just thought I'd point some things out.

Note: If you skip over anything that I wrote, please don't bother replying/quoting me. -_-
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(04-29-2013, 08:57 PM)Mister Emissary Wrote: My issue with this is two things.
  1. 25%/400%(Eva/Acc)?! That seems like a bit much, that's double what it currently is, and would probably change things a lot more than you imagine. (The actual pokemon games run on a roughly 33.3%/300%(Eva/Acc) scale, topping that is risky at best.)
  2. The new move pool. I don't know when it's coming out, but it will, so I think it'd be smarter to wait until it did before changing something like this.

These are just my main points, I'll go a bit more into detail later.

Now, I'd like some kind of hit chance calculator, or something. Exactly how much does Evasion Master, Evasion Armor, and a +5 to evasion calculate out to? Knowing this would probably give a better understanding of the current system for everyone.

I imagine the calculations start at about 100 over 100. So with that in mind:
Code:
100/100 (Accuracy/Evasion)
-2 in accuracy is 80/100, which equals 80% of whatever move used.
80% of a 65% chance move is 52%.

-5 in accuracy and +5 evasion is 50/200, which equals 25%.
25% of a 65% chance move is 16% rounded.

Armors/abilities take off the percentage 'after' the above's been calculated.
So, with Accuracy Decreaser, Evasion Master, and Evasion Armor...
Minus 15% of 50 = 42, accuracy.
Add 45% of 200 = 290, evasion.
42% over 290% = 14% rounded.
And 14% of a 65% move is 9% rounded.

If any of that is wrong, pardon me. But the point is you can reduce a 100% accuracy move down to about 14% with the right additions. In pokemon, the lowest you can bring a 100% move (via; just stats) down to 33.3%. But you're able to bring it down to 25% (via; just stats) the same way here! I just don't see the problem with the current system. =/

Upping it to 25%/400%, or even 33.3%/300% would make it 6% and 11%, respectively. A one in 20 chance of hitting the opponent with 100% moves seems silly to me. I understand there's stat reset moves, but looking at the base values gives a better example of things than possible moveset changes. Maybe if we had more guaranteed (not 1000%) hit moves, it'd make a good argument, and/or if emissary/zenith monsters could learn Stat Guard.

But as it is, this seems silly, and I don't understand how your opponent hitting you 1/5th of the time is so horrible. Maybe you shouldn't waste all your time setting up. You know, it's called strategy?

So yeah, no support here, just thought I'd point some things out.

Note: If you skip over anything that I wrote, please don't bother replying/quoting me. -_-
Though I agree with Knost I actually agree with a lot of what you said as well...

FYI Accuracy decreaser is applied before accuracy modifiers...
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Totally supporting ! v1 was 400% Limit , now just 200% and it wont even work well.
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